Many Jesuses or Just One? (Part II)

Many Jesuses or Just One? (Part II) Discussion Transcript

Shirley Paulson:
Welcome everyone to the March, 2020 Tahoe Monday textual study. I’m your host, Shirley Paulson of Early Christian Texts, and our presenter this evening is Dr. Hal Taussig. In this study, we’ll be talking about Many Jesuses or Just One -part 2. We’ll pick up from where we left off last month. We found examples from a variety of texts that portrayed Jesus in different and even contradictory ways. And tonight we’ll take a closer look at these portrayals in the, maybe the letters from Paul, maybe the Gospel of Mary, Secret Revelation of John, The Letter of Peter to Philip, but maybe not all those, I don’t know. Anyway, just a gentle reminder that donations supporting the creation of these textual study archives are greatly appreciated. $5 to $10 per session would be enough to keep us going. You can find the donation link and the text that we’re studying tonight, more information about past and future study sessions, as well as other archived recordings on EarlyChristianTexts.com. That’s my website, and you go there and click on the button on the homepage that says, Tahoe Monday Textual Studies. So that’s it. Hal, It’s your turn.

Hal Taussig:
Thanks so much, Shirley, and thank you, all for being here on, this perhaps one of the oddest Monday nights many of us have had in a while. So we also are a little bit odd tonight in that we rarely have done two studies in a row on the same topic. But tonight we are, we simply ran out of time to talk last month. And so we’re going, to see what happens. Stay for another hour. I would want to say, as I usually do that I’m very interested in what you have to think and what you have to say. Especially in an evening like this for you to have very strong interest, very strong protests, very strong encouragement. Those all really belong to the way we talk together.

So, yes, the, question tonight then is “Are there many Jesuses or is there one Jesus?” And in some ways, I think that question which is meant to be big, is also in one way, just another way for us to get a chance to talk at a bunch of different texts from the early Christ people of the first two centuries. So today, we will come at, as we did last month, we’ll come at the extraordinary diversity of pictures of Jesus in the first two centuries. And we did that last month in a way that seemed evocative enough for us. The diversity seemed evocative enough that to a certain extent, we weren’t sure whether we were talking about the same person. And even those of us who were very attached to Jesus found ourselves wondering, “How big a tent could one person provide for one identity?”

And so I thought it might be just one thing to remind us of in a very easy portrait, just to start with the name Jesus. So, and again, I don’t want to be too pedantic, but this may be a matter of interest to some folks. So a question of who is Jesus starts first, of course, with the language we’re speaking, because whoever any Jesus in the first century was they wouldn’t have called themselves Jesus. Right? Because that’s in English. And Jesus in Jesus’s own language, which was more or less Aramaic occasionally perhaps Hebrew, but mostly Aramic. Anybody know what Jesus’s name was in his own language?

Speaker:
Is it? Is it ye Yeshua?

Hal Taussig:
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. And Yeshua, that helps us a lot to just sort of getting all the way through so that helps us almost tell us what Jesus’ name was in English. Anybody wanna jump on that? Joshua.

So, Joshua was a really a common name in the ancient world, and especially in Israel of the first century. It’s not an odd name or a name that you say, Hey, I met someone named Joshua (Yeshua) today. That would be more like, Yeah, tell me something new. The word Yeshua means salvation. But if you say that word on the street you’d probably know that you’re talking about somebody. In other words, if you said, Hey, I saw Yeshua today, or Yeshua, you would probably know that you’re talking about one of the seven or eight people in the village called that. So when we are talking tonight about was there more than one Jesus or not, on one level, the answer is clear, right? You know, there were thousands.

But that’s not, of course the question that we’re working on. And basically we’re in the middle of a conversation now that would pose the question this way. Since there are so many portraits of an important person living in Israel as a teacher called Jesus, and since those pictures of Jesus are just breathtakingly different, does it make sense to think about there being in, shall we say, the field of the study of the early Jesus and Christ movements, does it make sense to think about there being one Jesus or many Jesus? And again, we kind of flopped our way into this question not unknowingly, but in many ways, again, surprisingly last month when we found out, for instance, that Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas is someone who speaks in short wisdom sayings, and who doesn’t seem to have either been crucified or resurrected.

On the other hand, let’s say in the Gospel of Matthew or Mark, often they have some differences there. But there you have a teacher, mostly a wisdom teacher, maybe something other than wisdom now and then a healer. That doesn’t go on in the Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas, for instance. And someone who’s crucified and resurrected. Other things too. I think it looks like to me that Jesus in Mark is probably a little bit sadder and mader than the one in Matthew. But that’s not as big a difference as when you can compare those other three, Thomas, Mark and Matthew. But then we also saw other Jesuses like the Gospel of Truth and the Gospel of John, where there were stunning differences. So, for instance, when you hear Jesus in the Gospel of John talk, he teaches almost nothing that Jesus teaches in the Gospel of Mark. Hardly anything’s the same.

So anyway, that’s where we got to, and we thought that it might be helpful for us to then ask this question that is, in some ways for us, mostly a contemporary question. That is, is it for us more and more, because there are more and more documents from the ancient world that talk about Jesus, and that diversity gets bigger and bigger, even though the diversity is pretty big, even in the Canon in the New Testament, it’s even bigger with once you start having things like the Gospel of Mary and the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Truth. So is that diversity too big for one Jesus? I wanna say that I frankly don’t mean this to be provocative, but more interesting and curious. And I would wanna say that even though I’ve been asking myself this question probably for 20 years I’m not sure what my opinion is.

And I’m not worried about whether I could come up with a right question or wrong question or a right answer or a wrong answer. So in other words, I think this can take us deep in questions if we ask it this way and it could feel scary. I would encourage you if it starts feeling scary, just step back three paces and listen to us for a while or say something that you’re thinking about it. And I think you can guarantee that we won’t jump on you no matter what your answer or question or protest might be. So we have, as Shirley pointed out, we have a whole bunch of additional books we can look at from the first two centuries that are still more different, and I’m ready and willing to do that. But it feels, now that I’ve laid out the territory, it might be helpful for folks before we look at some other texts and their differences whether you have any thoughts, questions, protests, puzzlements, or breakthroughs at the beginning.

Tim Stover:
Hal, this is Tim Stover.

Hal Taussig:
Hi Tim.

Tim Stover:
This is a question that Lane McGauhy is a close friend and colleague, and he has talked about in the Canonical gospels that you see maybe a process of a development of Christology, that between going from Mark clear on through to John’s gospel, that you see a growing, changing Christology that, represents what the extended community is doing with trying to make sense out of what happens with this quote “savior” that gets crucified. So that doesn’t even go into the extra canonical gospels. Any, any reflection on that?

Joy:
What is Christology?

Tim Stover:
Yeah, Well Lane would say it was the process through which those early communities turned Jesus into Christ. As a title, not as part of his name, but that, what does it mean to say Jesus is Christ? And in a sense, Christology would be the process of answering that. Christ means anointed functionally if you trace its roots back through. So is Jesus anointed in a particular way? I mean, for example, Paul the Apostle Paul is the earliest one we have talking about him, and he doesn’t seem to know anything about a miraculous birth. He talks about resurrection; wrestles with whether it’s bodily or spiritual or whatever, but that’s how Paul comes to know this Jesus as Christ is through his own revelation. So then you have Mark’s gospel in its original form, doesn’t have any miraculous birth, and ends with an empty tomb. Then you get into Matthew and Luke, depending on where you wanna date, those, they both have miraculous births and life beyond the empty tomb. And then John’s gospel, Jesus is Christ at the beginning of, you know, the, I’m sorry, I shortcut there. In Mark’s gospel, Jesus becomes Christ at hisbaptism by John. Right?

Hal Taussig:
So Joy did that help you with the term Christology?

Joy:
Hmm. It’s okay to say.

Hal Taussig:
Oh,

It’s ok. I’m not quite understanding what Tim’s question is.

Yeah, I think I got it. and let me say just a little bit more about Christology. Christology is a way of giving Jesus an important name. Who is this guy and what important name might we give him? So Tim, thanks a lot for jumping right in. I would wanna notice that at least in the way Tim was talking about it, there is one Jesus that the community is changing their view of Jesus over time. I mean, that’s, what I’m asking.

Uhhuh, right? Sure.

I mean, that’s what your colleague Lane has kind of talked about.

Hal Taussig:
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker:
At least here on the left coast.

Hal Taussig:
Yeah.

Sally:
Can I jump in here for a minute?

Hal Taussig:
Sure.

Sally:
One of my favorite sayings of Jesus, other then his farwell address in the Gospel of John, where he tells his disciples, he says, I have to go away. He said, because you won’t get the Comforter if I don’t go away. And to a certain extent, what I see is, yes, there’s one human, Jesus, but just the sense in the same way that when we have children, we see their beings literally and figuratively. We teach them and we influence them, but then they’re on their own. Now they’re their own person. And I see that with Jesus in the community, and I love that idea in the Gospel of John where he says, I have to go away, or you’re not gonna get it. You’re gonna keep holding on to the physical me, and you’re not gonna get the essence of who I am. And I think that what Jesus as a human person did, and what many people do in this world is they seed human consciousness with their own example, their own life story their own amazing, whoever they are, and then take that and take ownership in their own way, and make it something that blesses and continues and passes that down in one form or another. And if it had just remained static as Jesus told the disciples of John to make it our own.

Hal Taussig:
Thank you, Sally. By the way, Yeah. I think we were getting a little bit of fuzziness in there, but I think I followed most of what you said. I think that is a very important way of laying that out. And so as you jumped in Sally, on that, let me also say a bit about your question Tim, as well. I guess I would wonder about- it seems that what you and Lane have been talking about-would assume that the heart of who Jesus is, is the historical Jesus.

Right.

And then, if you start there, then what you have is an elaboration of one or several kinds. So I just wanna acknowledge for many of us in this conversation, I suspect that we assume that Jesus is really defined by who the human person Jesus was, even if he gets named divine by a number of people, that that’s the starting point. From my point of view, I’m not so sure about that for two reasons.

One is there’s so many other Jesuses around in the stories that don’t fit with the human Jesus that lived in Israel. And secondly it doesn’t look like we know enough about the historical Jesus. Now, I’m from The Jesus Seminar, and we thought we were hot stuff for 10 or 15 years because we thought we had found out who the historical Jesus was. I’m not so sure about that. But what I am a little bit sure of is (at least after we spent 15 years trying to figure out who the historical Jesus was) one of the things we found out is that most of what was written didn’t seem to fit with the historical Jesus. And therefore, the historical Jesus didn’t have enough material to be very meaningful or important, either for the first century or for the later century.

Now, we can get into historical Jesus stuff later. I’m less interested in that. But I do notice that Tim if one thinks everything begins with the historical Jesus, then it’s easier to say, “Oh, and it elaborated in these seven different ways.” The number of problems I have is that it looks like many of the Jesuses that get put into writing in the first hundred up to two hundred years are stunning portraits, just gripping people, and not the same. In other words, frankly, I can hang out with the Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas, you know, gimme 10 years with him, and we’ll still be talking the same with the Gospel of John, The same with Paul’s Jesus. but they’re not, it wouldn’t be the same conversation.

So Tom, I guess, or Tim, I guess I would say that’s a weak no, to how much Christology matters. I tend to see that we’ve got so much difference on our hands, I’d say twenty or twenty-five Jesuses at least if you count the different people as different Jesuses there’s just alot of beautiful things that different ones of them own and different identities that they have. So that would be a partial answer. And I’m sorry we can’t go too much deeper, Tim, on what we said. Let’s see if there’s some other thoughts kicking around before we look at some other. So it feels to me like we’ve jumped in very nicely.

Barry:
Hal this is Barry. Thank you so much for these very invigorating ideas and for prompting this conversation. And one way, when it comes to the Canonical portraits of Jesus that I’ve found meaningful in talking with students about this, is seeing the diversity of portraits of Jesus as the ways in which these authors are addressing the diverse needs and interests of their specific communities. And that resonates for me when it comes to a gospel like Matthew or Mark, where I think that case could be made. I don’t know enough about the contexts of the diversity of gospels beyond the Canon to know if that theory would hold up when it comes to a gospel like Thomas or Mary, and was wondering your thoughts about that.

Hal Taussig:
Thank you, Barry. Yes, and I certainly have spent a bunch of time in the territory you lay out noticing how if one would talk about different Jesuses or even the same, that one of the main ways of thinking about those differences in the different texts is- there are different groups of people, different communities, that actually fashion or discover different Jesuses for each of their situations. Many of you know I’m a pastor as well as a scholar. What I would often talk about in church terms is that there are different gospels made for different communities. And so, for instance, I pastored a community of very poor African American folks for 13 years, and it was clear to me after that, I went and pastored for more time than that, a bunch of rich white people who lived 10 miles away.

And their worlds were very different. So I found myself using different gospels for different people, because I thought for instance, the Jesus for me of Mark, which is so broken and so mad and sad, and so ingenious and funny it just worked really well with my poor folks. They needed jokes. They liked jokes. They knew how to live with humor and loss. And on the other hand, my kind of fairly wealthy suburbanites really liked the Gospel of Luke where Jesus was really in charge and knew about the big world and could travel around in it. So that’s how I think the way you’re thinking helps. The answer to your question (and by the way, some of you know that I’m probably lying because no one knows what happened in the first century very well) but I think the answer might be to what you’re asking is, yeah, there are just a lot of ingenious communities writing amazing things about Jesus in the non-canonical as well. And I would say from my point of view, often when I taught in thinking about different communities, I said, you know, Matthew and Paul would have a fist fight if they were ever in the same room. Their Jesuses are so different mainly around whether Torah works or doesn’t. So Matthew knows Torah works. Paul starts swearing at people who use Torah too much. So yeah, I think Barry that the Pandora’s boxes really opened in the last 50 to 75 years as we discover a lot more of these texts. And you know, I’ve said this before, but in the first 20 years of my life as a scholar most of the new documents were not really, they were just coming into view.

I did my PhD before that, and I, and most of my colleagues, including the people who worked on the text first, basically said something like, This new stuff is just junk. It’s somewhere between heresy and second rate. And I traveled in that world and said the wrong thing many times until the public kept saying to me- Hey, I read that stuff and it’s really interesting to me. So I went back to work after 20 years, learned Coptic, and then by the end of my career had PhD students that only wanted to look at the new stuff. So I think that the character, brilliance and power of the newly discovered documents easily matches the Canon. And I think there’s a lot of junk in both. Okay. So we’re already halfway done, and we’re just getting into it.

Why don’t I just tell you a little bit about a couple more documents, and then we can get back into this. Surely it feels like we didn’t even need to bring new documents, but we’re in the same trouble. Thank you. So I, I thought I might read the beginning part of the Secret Gospel of John. That has Jesus talking in the first person. So this is the writer- ” Just then while I was thinking these things, the heavens opened and the whole creation below the heaven was illuminated with light below heaven, and the whole world quaked. I was afraid and I watched and behold,” and here this is Jesus’s entry “and behold, a child appeared to me. Then the child changed himself into the form of an old man, that had light existing within him.

Although I was watching him, I did not understand this wonder. Whether it is a woman having numerous forms in the light for its forms appeared through each other, or it is one likeness that has three aspects. These aspects said to me, John, why are you doubtful and fearful for you are not a stranger to this likeness. Do not be fainthearted, I am the one who dwells with you always. I am the Father and the Mother, and I am the Son. I am the one who exists forever, undefiled and unmixed. Now, I have come to instruct you about what exists and what has come into being and what must come into being.”

Okay, so I don’t know how many of you’ve heard The Secret Revelation of John, and you should talk to Shirley cuz she’s done her, dissertation on it, but I would wanna say that this is a fairly different picture than most of us have of Jesus. And this Jesus does end up having some things that teach, but none of them correspond to what are in Mark or Matthew. Some of them correspond somewhat to the way Jesus teaches in John, and maybe a little bit in how Jesus teaches in Thomas. And maybe a little bit about how Jesus teaches in the Gospel of Mary. But this child that turns into an old man that turns into turns into a woman is, quite a picture. And if one reads the rest of The Secret Revelation of John, one finds it fairly dependable, I would say in many ways.

I’m not saying like it fits the I creed. I’m just saying that if you watch how this Jesus changes the world, heals people and brings people together, it’s not nothing. Let me show you, one other thing. This is The Letter of Peter to Philip. This Letter of Peter to Philip, also from the Nag Hamadi. This isn’t a letter, but it’s called a letter. So this is what’s happening in the part I’m going to read you is after Jesus has died and gone to be with God, the disciples are being killed, and the ones that haven’t been killed are afraid they’re gonna be killed. And so they try to dial up Jesus, and Jesus comes. So here’s Jesus in The Letter of Peter to Philip.

“Then a great light appeared so that the mountain gleamed from the sight of the one who appeared and a voice called out to them saying, Listen to my words, that I might speak to you. Why are you seeking me? I am Jesus Christ who is with you forever. Then the ambassadors answered and said to him,” (The ambassadors is the the way you should translate apostles) “Lord, we wish to understand the lack of the generations and their fullness, and how we are restrained to this dwelling place, and how we have come here and in what way shall we leave? How do we have the authority of freedom? Why do the powers fight against us?”

There’s more to that. But here, notice that there Jesus is a light that comes down to people after he has died, basically, when they say, could, could we talk? And especially when what they wanna talk about is whether they’re going to get tortured to death.

They’re going out at the, the rest of the books regularly. The rest of the book says they’re going out regularly and teaching in the temple and other places, but they’re pretty sure as they watch others being knocked off, that they’re gonna be knocked off to. And Jesus comes back to them several times, and, finally they say, Wait a minute, What are we gonna do? We’re gonna die. And Jesus says, Just keep doing what you’re doing, Heal people and teach. Go up to the temple regularly. and if you die, you die. And if you don’t, you don’t. Here too is a powerful presence, I wanna say that really cares about what happens to people, what their mission is, what their work is, and doesn’t seem to have a bodily form at all. Has no teachings that they seem to know about. Not clear that there are any miracles or healings there. Maybe the book isn’t large enough for that. But the main thing that this book is about is what do we do when the Roman powers are just gonna slaughter us? And Jesus, doesn’t seem to be too… He doesn’t wanna reassure too much, and he doesn’t wanna say, Yeah, you’ve got it, you’re, gonna get killed. Which is what a bunch of other gospels or documents both inside the Canon and outside the Canon do say. All right. So those are two more things. I was gonna talk a lot about Paul. We can talk some more about Paul, but let’s see if there’s some other questions, protests, thoughts coming.

Joy:
So this is Joy.

Hal Taussig:
Hey, Joy.

Joy:
I have been focusing on The Secret Revelation of John.

Hal Taussig:
Ooh, thank you.

Joy:
It starts off with this guy, so at a loss, because his savior is gone and everybody’s going, This guy was, joking around. It’s false news. And he leaves the people and he goes to the mountain or the desert, and then this vision or whatever it is, appears and starts teaching a really deep picture of what God is and how the original creation is, and then how all this chaos and turmoil started coming, and not necessarily explaining it, but he brings the reader through this perfect piece to a chaotic piece of all these guys, all the characters, and I can’t remember all their names, but anyway, are doing all these things. But then at the end, this savior comes to those who are in prison and, and hides because they’re not quite ready to get it.

And then it comes again and hides because nobody’s quite ready. And then it finally comes a third time, and then there’s somebody who’s looking for this answer. And for me, I was reading this because of the situation now, which seems like this chaos and fear is going on with people. And I found that that’s what the answer is for me, is to go back to that very basic, really deep thing of the beginning, the creation that’s one creation, and that all this other stuff just got created from humans thinking they can do things. Anyway, I’ve really been studying this book and you know, trying to look at the Jesus, but more about the message of the book is so cool.

Hal Taussig:
Oh, that’s so, so wonderful. Joy, thank you for saying that. And you’re right, it has so much amazing things in it that whatever it’s Jesus is is not quite the central part of the message. There’s some important Jesus there. But in terms of our question for tonight, what would you say, Joy? Can you find that Jesus elsewhere in, other writings from, from the early Christ people?

Joy:
I would guess the closest I would come to that Jesus would be in the Gospel of John because I think that the Gospel of John has very deep concepts about God and about unity and about oneness. That doesn’t describe Jesus as a person, but as this oneness. That would be my figuring.

Hal Taussig:
Whoa. That is an unbelievable winning answer. Thank you. I agree. And so do the, so do both of the texts, I think, in other words, both of them have John in them, the word John, and I think that there’s a decent chance that they are a part of a larger movement together, or at least associated. And just to bring in another book that we said we might talk about tonight, it seems to me really different than another book with the word John in it, that is also about the end of the world. The, canonical Revelation to John is full of… I mean… Jesus is the general who slaughters hundreds of thousands of people in the Revelation to John. And there is such a bloody big event for the Revelation to John, whereas none of that happens in The Secret Revelation of John when Jesus enters back again at the end. Well, both times Jesus really does not win with any battle. He wins with a simple message of love and wisdom.

And so, you know, that figure, in the Canonical Revelation to John of all the battle where that he has from the very beginning is running around trying to save the bloodied world with armies… that’s for me seems relatively far from and different. And frankly, I actually have my good moments with the Revelation to John, but it doesn’t seem like the same character. Well, if any of you can even come near leading us as well as Joy, that’s good. But let’s, hear other thoughts?

AJ:
I have a question. This is AJ

Hal Taussig:
Hey, AJ.

AJ:
First, thank you. This is super fascinating and inspiring. Really appreciate the work that’s going into this- Hal and Shirley. Is there any common quality among the Jesuses in the non-canonical writings that stands out as like an indicator of why they may have been avoided when the Canon was being chosen?

Hal Taussig:
Great question, AJ. I think, I don’t know the answer to your question because I, not really on top of the 70 documents or so that I would have to be to see if there’s anything that they all share. I would say that a bunch of them share a bunch of other things with one another and not with anything else. but that’s also true, I think, of the Canon. So in other words, I would say that for me, the differences between the books in the Canon are such a rich, powerful picture and such a great package for a whole bunch of different people.

It is true that after we found a whole bunch more, we have more differences. But again, I’ve said this several times over the last four or five months I think the idea of diversity in various Christ communities and Christ movements is inherent in, the Canon itself. And this is what I’ve said before. So Irenaeus, who’s not my favorite teacher, in the second century has this amazing thing that I really love and he does talk about Jesus, but this isn’t about Jesus. He’s the first person Irenaeus is the first person to say, let’s have four gospels and let’s have them be Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. So right at the end of the second century Irenaeus is saying that. So to a certain extent, one would say, if one’s worried about Orthodoxy or Canon or things like that, whew. That was a, that’s a relief.

Except the next thing that Irenaeus says is-I want these four gospels because there are four winds that blow and four corners to the earth. In other words, the reason this great heresy hater of the end of the second century( Irenaeus)… the reason he wants for gospels is because they’re so different. so there is a dimension to many of us that think, hope I could only figure out where the good guys are and where the bad guys are in terms of documents that would help us. But I think it’s much more beautifully messy than that myself.

Stephanie:
But don’t you think that the four gospels are other, you know, four Winds, you know, corners of the world, but when you look at the Canon, it’s a contextual flow. And I think we have to make room for that and also look at how the Canon is being used from the time it’s kind of put together up until today. And so there’s a contextual flow, even though it’s, very diverse and in all different kind of things going on. But at the end of the day, it’s all moving in the same direction- if that makes sense. Because there’s an agenda, right? And we talked about the different Jesuses for the different communities. But again, it’s how it’s taught.

I grew up in the AME church; and I grew up in the AME church, in a working middle class community, and so Luke spoke very highly, you know, was very prominent in my upbringing, their theology because Luke was the doctor, and, and then, you know, you attach it to Acts. and so that thinking of who Jesus was in that context was big for my community. Right? and so we have to look at what’s the contextual agenda to why people attach themselves to these particular Jesuses. And then when you do that and you look at the non-Canonical Jesuses, you know, those Jesus kind of get in the way of the agenda. That’s the way I see it. We not looking at these Jesus, because, the church doesn’t want to hear that Jesus already came back, that the people prayed and said, Jesus, we need to talk to you.

And he was like, Okay, here I am. The church doesn’t wanna hear that. The church doesn’t wanna hear that Jesus is like, “Well, listen, just keep doing what you are doing. I can’t really guarantee that there’s this, pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.” The, the church doesn’t wanna hear that. Right? The church wants to hear, he’s coming back. They want the, revelation Jesus. Right? On the white horse, breaking it up and getting it done. They don’t wanna hear that. They don’t want hear that we gotta keep going and there’s no guarantees that we gonna come out shiny. We don’t want to hear that. Right? And then when you look at how the gospel is used Dr. James Cone and I used to have a difference because he would talk about Jesus on the cross. And my argument was if there wasn’t any resurrection Jesus being preached to these folks, they wouldn’t stay on the cross during the civil rights movement. You’re not gonna deal with dogs and hoses and being beaten just basically from Jesus on the cross. You are looking at resurrection Jesus too. And so which Jesus fits the agenda of the time? That’s what I think we’re looking at.

Hal Taussig:
So if I understand you Stephanie, you’re saying there’s several levels of bigness that can help a whole bunch of different folks in different ways?

Stephanie:
Right.

Hal Taussig:
Or do they all have the same message?

Stephanie:
It can help folks in different ways, but coming to the same end. Right? That the rich folks that you preach to, the rich white folks that liked John-that’s what you said, right? As opposed to the, the poor black folks that like Mark. But at the end of the day, we’re all going to heaven. We’re all gonna get our reward, right? And so it may be different how you get to heaven, but at the end of the day, we’re all getting to heaven. As opposed to the Jesus and the Letter from Peter to Philip that says, Listen, what do you want? Okay, I’m here. I’m going to, you gotta just keep doing what you’re doing. There’s no guarantee, there’s no favor. There’s no- Oh, you’re going to get out of it and everybody gonna be okay. There’s none of that. And so that’s a different end than we’re all going to make it to heaven, and we’re all gonna come out shiny. That’s a different end, you know?

Hal Taussig:
Yeah. And so I hear you appreciating both.

Stephanie:
I do. But I think that because of what Joy said — about what we’re going through right now…

Hal Taussig:
Okay? Yeah. Right. All right. Yeah.

Stephanie:
You need to hear that. You just need to keep doing what you’re doing.

Hal Taussig:
Oh, okay. So I hear you more clearly. So you’re gonna hang on to The Letter of Peter to Philip!

Stephanie:
For right now. Yeah. Cause I gotta keep washing my hands. I gotta keep social distancing. I gotta keep doing that. And so, there is no guarantee, right? And so you need to hear that. You need to hear that Jesus! That there is no guarantee. You need to hear that Jesus (from the Secret Revelation of John) that it’s a, it’s a hot mess. You know, you need to hear that it’s a hot mess, and that Jesus has some struggles when he came to do what he had to do. You know, a lot of people don’t wanna hear that. But you need to hear that.

Hal Taussig:
I got it. And I would tend to say, I don’t wanna misuse what you just said, but I would say I’d rather be with several people in the Canon and The Letter of Peter to Philip rather than First Timothy, which I understand to be saying, just so long as the women are shutting up and the men are in charge we’ll be okay.

Stephanie:
Right.

Hal Taussig:
So now Shirley, we’re out of time. I’ve failed us again. But what an amazing conversation. One of the most vibrant conversations we’ve had. And I hope that I’ve at least been able to provide some other thinking as well.

Shirley Paulson:
Well, you sure got us moving Hal in ways that I think all of us are gonna go back and say, I have more thinking to do. And that’s okay. Cause then you’ll come back and, you know, I’m happy to say that Hal has even been thinking about what we’re going to do next month, which is gonna be exciting too. So this is one of the first times we can tell you in advance next month. We’re talking about just 30 seconds on what that is for next month?

Hal Taussig:
Yes. We’re going to look at the figure of Noria, who is a female divine figure in a number of newly discovered texts. She is known as a, divine figure, and also the daughter of Eve.

Shirley Paulson:
It’s gonna be really great also. So if you think you got all settled with Jesus, come and get settled with Noria next time. I’m gonna close out with my little quote here. So if you wouldn’t mind bearing with me again here too. Also, I wanna just mention before we close out here, if you would like to get a reminder for next time, leave your name on the chat. I will keep the chat up this time. Also, I’m curious to know if any of you feel like, since we’re all home bodies now, if you would prefer meeting earlier in the day, next month, or in the future while we’re going through this kind of process, let us know your feelings about that too. on the chat part, we’ll keep it the same unless a lot of people say change it for some reason.

So meanwhile, I’m gonna just tell you that this was the March, 2020 Town Hall Monday textual studies discussion on Many Jesuses or Just One? -part two, led by Dr. Hal Taussig. Once a month from eight to nine PM Eastern Time on Monday nights, generally the fourth of the month, the Tahoe Center sponsors a discussion of one of the early Christian texts or maybe some of more. Each session is led by a trained scholar, in this case, Hal Taussig, who shares a well framed overview of the particular text and allows discussion participants time to share their insights as well. Donations supporting the creation of these textual study archives are greatly appreciated. To donate, simply click on the Town Hall Monday textual studies button on the arly Christian Text Home page. You’ll also find the donation button directly to the early Christian text so that we can keep hosting the website. Thank you so much, and a special thanks goes to Hal for another stimulating and amazing conversation about many Jesuses.