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Bible and Beyond: Moving Into the Mainstream

Introduction

We’re celebrating eight years of Early Christian Texts: The Bible and Beyond!

In 2018, Shirley Paulson had an idea that she could play a role in moving the Nag Hammadi (and other related early texts) from being largely unknown outside academic circles into the mainstream. Shirley connected with other scholars like Dr. Hal Taussig, Dr. Deb Saxon, and Dr. B. Brandon Scott and brought in a technical expert experienced in working on progressive Christian projects like this one, Lē Isaac Weaver.

With the help of a growing community of dedicated supporters and several other like-minded scholars, Shirley began the process of rolling a very large boulder up a very large hill.

For eight years Shirley and her team have been creating online material: articles, podcasts, videos, and courses, all designed to educate the public about why and how the Nag Hammadi texts must be introduced into mainstream Christian awareness. This endeavor was and still is challenging, but clearly, people are starting to understand that these are important texts worthy of deep consideration, not heretical writings to be avoided.

Awareness of early Christian texts is going mainstream! But there’s still more work that lies ahead to help people who remain cautious. In this discussion, Shirley Paulson, founder of the Bible and Beyond, will discuss why people struggle with the texts, how that can be overcome, and why it’s so important to continue advocating for their open-minded study.

Text:

From Shirley Paulson’s paraphrase of the Secret Revelation of John:

John says:
We have been told everything so that we can share it with anyone who is willing to hear.
It will appear as a secret to those who close their ears.
The promise of unshakable peace remains hidden for those who will not look more deeply.
We treasure this awakening and commit to preserving it for all humanity.
We would lose everything if we exchanged this gift for the fleeting attractions of worldly power and pleasure.
This knowledge comes in the purity of heart-to-heart communion with God.
And then the presence lifts, so that we may go out and share it freely with others who are ready to receive it.

From Illuminating the Secret Revelation of John, © 2022 by Shirley Paulson

Transcript

Lē Isaac Weaver

All right, first, let me express my gratitude to all of you joining us live tonight. We’re looking forward to hearing from you in the second half of the program. I also don’t want to forget to give a shout out to all of you who couldn’t be here tonight but are listening to the Discussion recording on our YouTube channel. We sure hope that our discussions are interesting and beneficial to all of you.

This is the June 2026 Bible and Beyond Discussion titled “The Bible and Beyond: Moving into the Mainstream.”

I’m Lē Isaac Weaver, the person who is usually content to lurk in the technological shadows of the Bible and Beyond. But I’m making an appearance tonight, so instead of Shirley asking the questions, she can sit in the hot seat and be the knowledgeable expert answering our questions.

Good evening, Shirley. Thanks for your willingness to turn things around. I know we’re all excited to hear your perspective on what’s going on with extracanonical texts.

Shirley Paulson

Oh, thank you so much, Lē. And let me just say how glad I am for you, Lē, to be here and to hop on the stage and let people know who you are because you make it a party for us. So I’m glad you’re here, Lē.

Lē

Thanks so much. I’ll try to make it a party tonight. How about that? So to get started, I’m always interested in learning about the first time people heard about the early Christian writings that were not included in the Bible. This is something for the rest of you to keep in mind when we open it up to discussion because I find these stories from everybody really fascinating.

Shirley, you know I remember the first time, when I was in college, a New Testament professor made a couple references to the Infancy Gospel of Thomas but didn’t even really say that it was that book, just made references to a couple of stories. But I think that was the only thing I heard about extracanonical writings until I was in my 50s and met Deb Saxon and Mark Mattison. Do you remember the first time you heard about early Christian writings that were not in the Bible? And how long after that was it before you started really looking into the subject?

Shirley 

Well, I think you were ahead of me, Lē. I certainly heard about heresies, and I had heard all about the way that they were like evil people trying to subvert the Christian church. And they did it through all sorts of devious and sinister methods to try to attack the church. And I knew that some of those writings were still around. So when Nag Hammadi and these other discoveries were made, I didn’t really pay attention or I didn’t know what they were. And I assumed that as everybody around me did, these must have been the long-lost heresies that I wasn’t going to think about because they were just really bad and they were wrong.

So it wasn’t until I was at seminary and in my 50s or later, I think, my wonderful supervisor told me that I was the one who sounded like a heretic to others and that I should learn more about these kinds of heresies so that I could learn why other people thought I was a heretic. And that’s when I learned about the Secret Revelation of John, which was the first book I really looked at outside the Bible. So yeah, it was long after I finished college, and I was onto a second or third career by then.

Lē

So that’s really interesting that it was that long for you. What were some of the ideas and concepts you came across early in your study that flipped it from feeling heretical? Can you remember any of those?

Shirley

Yes, I remember it vividly because, first of all, my supervisor, who was really good at understanding where I was coming from, was also a heretic himself. He was a Greek Protestant. But all Greeks are supposed to be Orthodox. But he was a Protestant Greek. So he knew what it was like to be on the outside. He was very sensitive to where I was coming from. And he gave me the Secret Revelation of John to read. And he said, “Don’t look at any other commentaries. Just look at this book and tell me what you think about it.”

So with that in mind, I read it, not having any idea what it was about. And I was very surprised to find some ideas I felt comfortable with. And I was drawn to it just because it felt like maybe the first thing I heard was that it was a really healing message. Like it was looking to find uplift and help and support for people more than to believe in this and you’ll get it right or believe in this and you’ll be saved. It was really a religion about helping people. And I thought, oh, well, then I like that. But I will confess it was really complicated and really confusing. And I didn’t just get it right off the bat.

Lē

You know, knowing you, I can totally get into a religion about helping people, for you. Because you’re so much about that. But was it your experience at that time that a lot of other people’s denominations, Christian religions, and ways of expressing had become less about helping and more about rules or something like that? Did it fill a little niche that you saw needing to be filled?

Shirley 

Yeah, that’s a good way to put it. Because my whole goal was to find how we as Christians, even though we have such different sources of inspiration and rightness and so forth. I felt like there had to be a unifying thing among Christians, because if we’re all sort of leaning on Jesus to be a leader in some way, why are we so at odds with each other? So I was really, really looking for what we had in common. And so I found commonalities and differences, and I was really looking for where we can have conversations in common. And when I discovered these ancient writings, I felt, well, this is what belongs to all of us because it was soon after Jesus.

And I thought this is a way we could talk together about a religion supporting each other. That’s what really kind of pulled me through all this. So yes, I was very aware of differences because, as I say, I was a heretic anyway, but to really think about what was important to them and why. And I did begin to understand why others leaned so heavily on this or that kind of doctrine that I didn’t lean on. And I could understand that there was something deeper in there that I could appreciate. But I still was looking for that thing that could bring us together better.

Lē

Was this going on while reading the Secret Revelation of John? Was this going on when you were at Garrett Evangelical? Or was this later when you were at the University of Birmingham in the UK? Place that in your studies.

Shirley

Yeah, it was in seminary because I went to seminary at Garrett Evangelical Theological Seminary, which is a Methodist-based seminary. It’s a school here near me in Evanston, Illinois. And I went there for the purpose of finding how to be in conversation. And that’s when my amazing, fantastic supervisor said, “I think you need to read this book.” So I read it then. And it was when I read that book and discovered the phenomenal surprise I found there that I knew I had to go farther. And interestingly, that supervisor said he would probably take me on as a PhD student because he was interested in what I was doing also. But he didn’t get tenure and he couldn’t continue with the PhD program. So I had to go out and find it on my own, which is why I had to go to another school, which took me nine more years to find!

Lē

So at that time, were you just really focused on the Secret Revelation of John, or in your reading of it, did it open up all these other texts? Did you get interested then and start reading all these other ones, or were you really just kind of there in the Secret Revelation of John?

Shirley

That’s a great question. I would say both because the farther I got into the Secret Revelation of John, it felt like a whole new universe was opening up to me. It was just hard to describe how big it was. Way bigger than I had ever experienced in a religious context. It was just, I mean, it didn’t—how do I say it?—it didn’t give me another God. It just gave me a bigger view of the God I had felt like I had already known. But it was surprisingly big to me. But then, of course, that naturally led me to, “Where did this come from? How could this be?” And then that made me curious about the other texts that were with it in Nag Hammadi. And then I got farther into where they all came from and why and what else was happening. So I think that certainly led me into that bigger discussion. But I was curious about both inside the book and then outside the book.

Lē

I remember being at a retreat in a workshop by Mark Mattison. It was a whole weekend. Mark Mattison and Deb Saxon were leading on the Gospel of Mary, and they showed this one slide where these are the books in the Bible. And then they showed how these are all the writings that were written by early Christians, and there was a whole page full of them. And then they said, “These are the ones that made it into the canon.” And that blew my mind at the time because I remember thinking, why isn’t this important? Why isn’t everybody talking about this? Why isn’t everybody saying, “Wait, that’s just a little part of these? Why is this little part all we see? Why isn’t there more emphasis on all these other things? Can’t they help us learn to understand the canonical ones better?”

At some point, you decided that you were into all those other texts so much that you really wanted to bring this into the public’s awareness. I assume when you were at school, you were really focused on what you were doing there, but how did this idea of making something that would feed other people start germinating in you? And what was that kind of process? Because a lot of people take their knowledge and stay in the academy.

Shirley

I know. Well, what you just said about yourself, your own discovery about why this isn’t bigger, was also driving me at the same time during my studies, which is why I think you and I get along so well together. I think we had that driving question that just won’t leave us alone. So when I was in school, I was always thinking about why. How can I tell the rest of the world about this? And so I just knew I needed to learn a lot because there were things I just didn’t know. And I needed to learn the academic system to be able to be in the conversation. But I always felt like what drove me in the first place was, where is this ecumenical dialogue? Why doesn’t the world know this? How do we really communicate with people who have a heart and want to know more? That was always driving me through school. I had no idea what I would do or how.

Lē

So it was just kind of in the back of your mind at that point. People need to know.

Shirley

Yeah.

Lē

So you get through that, you get through your PhD, and I’m wondering, when did you start writing your book? Was your book your dissertation? Was the Illuminating the Secret of Revelation to John book based on your dissertation? Or did that come first? I’m not quite sure on the timing of this, if your idea of making the Bible and Beyond started right after school, or if you tried some other things, or if you were writing the book. What was the timeline like then?

Shirley

Oh, that’s an interesting question because my supervisor kept telling me that a book is different from a dissertation. Over and over again, he kept showing me a dissertation. You have to do this and this and this. And a book is very different. And I kept saying, well, I know, but I want to write a book. And he was a prolific writer. He wrote at least 2000 words a day. I could barely eke out 2000. Just a tenth of what he was doing. But I learned to just keep writing and writing, and it really helped me. His model was a good model for me. So when I finished the dissertation in the style of a dissertation, I thought, okay, now I want to make this accessible to real people. Because nobody reads dissertations. They have an academic purpose, like proving your thesis and all that. And that was boring.

So I really was eager to make it accessible. But I also knew that the stuff I had to say was not easy to get to. So I wrestled with it for quite a while. And I had the most wonderful editor from Westar who helped me appreciate the things that I was saying and the way that people could hear them. He was just a wonderful guide for zeroing in. That was Arthur Dewey. So I was very, very grateful. He volunteered to help me do that. And I didn’t even know to ask him, but he volunteered. And I was so grateful that he was there to do that with me. So he knew my goal, too, was to make it accessible.

Lē

So really the first inklings of the whole Bible and Beyond concept came in the form of making the book accessible. Or using a book to reach the public. Is that fair enough to say, or were you also thinking at the time, “What else can I do?” or “How else do I get this message out? I’m just wondering what that was because this was all before I knew you.

Shirley

Well, I know I had been thinking about website ideas before the book, because I had already done a website and a podcast before I did this. And I’d had some experience in that kind of public world and a little bit of social media and so forth. But I was looking for ways to do it. And I thought when I finished the dissertation, the book is an important way to be able to just put it all in one place. But before the book, I was thinking about a website. And I was actually asking friends if they would join me. And I had a hard time finding anybody willing to join me.

Lē

What do you think the deal was? Do you think it was a time thing, or were they just not as passionate about getting the message out? I mean, because it’s obvious to me listening to your story that you really felt like this needed to get out there. It’s kind of the same reaction I had when I heard about this. People have got to know about that. Do you think it just maybe wasn’t as important to other people to get it out there, or were they just too busy? Because we’re all so busy.

Shirley

I think you hit on it earlier when you asked the question about why. What’s important to you?  Why are you doing this? And some people really are more comfortable just staying in the academic world and just having that conversation. I really felt strongly that I wanted to be in a public conversation. And so the people that I spoke to were not as passionate about that. The people in school were equally passionate about the ideas and about the meaning of these texts, but the public will find out whatever way they want to. But my goal really was to find how we’re going to do this.

Lē

I think probably when we first started talking about doing a website, I think you had mentioned that you wanted a website with links to resources and a blog. I think that’s what you had initially told me, but things kept coming along the path after the website had been built. It was like, Oh, that’s kind of a good idea. I think people might be interested in hearing a little more about how the online presence evolved. And I probably told you when we started that you had to write at least three blog posts, or I wasn’t going to put up a blog page because that’s my usual MO. So many people say, oh, I want a blog. And they give you a blog post and never write another one. But of course this is Shirley. Of course, she had the three blog posts. She was ready to go and sent me another one like the day after the first one of those went up. But then the podcast came along, and I think you mentioned you had been kind of thinking about that and had done one before.

Shirley

Yeah.

Lē

And so that’s how that kind of worked in.

Shirley

Well, the chronology of this was that when I first started to look for ideas on how to get going—and again, I’ve been talking to friends about this and that—and one person suggested that I ought to get involved in doing video lectures. And I had no idea how to do that. But she told me about a platform called Udemy, which is where I did start with my courses on Udemy. And I went to a conference they had where I met some really outstanding video lecturers there. And they encouraged us to get into little groups and have conversations and help each other. It was a wonderful concept. So one of the guys in my little conversation group told me how he was going to do video lectures and also he was going to do podcasts by talking to authors about books on the economy. I thought, “Oh yes! Scholars love to talk about their books! That’s the way to do it.” So I just started that way. I just tried to contact some scholars and say, “Do you want to talk about your book? Most people said no, but a few of them said yes. And that’s all I needed.

Lē

Not as many are saying no now, though, so that’s cool.

Shirley

That is very cool. It’s taken a while to win them over. And I’m actually able to talk to maybe more important scholars now, too. But I thought that was an exciting idea, because I was interested in their books. And I wanted them to be known. So it wasn’t like I was hiding anything. I really wanted their ideas to get out there. So that’s what got me going on the podcast. It was my courses first and then the podcast.

Lē

So then I think that you put the first course up on Udemy. It was the Ancient Christian Texts for Modern Healing, right?

Shirley

Exactly. That’s right. And then fairly soon after the podcast, these Discussions came up.

Lē

And can you tell us a little bit about how that got started? Because they’ve turned out to be a pretty popular part of the outreach.

Shirley

And I’m so glad because this is how I get to see the people and be with people. I love it. This is my favorite part. It’s really fun. So that happened because fortunately, as I was getting started, I want to mention Hal Taussig. Most of you here probably know him and know why he’s been so really important to this whole process, because he was the one who, when I was doing my dissertation, I went to a Westar meeting where he was giving a talk about gnostic things. And I gave him my little business card and said, I’m working on a dissertation on the Secret Revelation of John. He stopped everything and talked to me for three hours that afternoon. He was very, very interested in supporting me and helping me. And he was absolutely there helping me all the way to the end. So I just can’t say enough about how helpful Hal has been.

Well, so in the process of getting going, I was aware of what he was doing with Tanho, which was his desire to also make these things public. And he did start a program trying to have scholars talk about different ideas like this. So when he was doing these programs, I realized he had great topics, great speakers, but nobody to talk to. He didn’t have a platform. And so I thought, well, I have the platform. Maybe I can help him. So I offered to support him by bringing them on to our website, which wasn’t yet called Bible and Beyond. It was just simply Early Christian Texts. And I just supported Tanho then. And little by little, it got harder and harder for him to do it. And so I just took it over myself. And I found my own scholars. And finally, he just said, “Okay, I’m done. You do it.” So we’ve been doing it ever since. But he certainly was the one who got us started and had the idea and got the Discussions going. And he was an incredible role model for having these discussions and including people in the conversation. And he did just a great job that way. I’m grateful to him.

Lē

Yeah, he really did.

So you’ve been writing online courses all along. You wrote the one by yourself. You worked on one with Hal, and they just have kind of been growing. But at some point, we kind of stumbled upon this idea of doing live online hybrid courses, which, of course, are courses that combine the video self-study with group discussions. And that has proved to be an incredibly popular thing. I think we’ve done 50 of them now, just since 2023. And with people clamoring for more, what do you think it is about that format that everybody likes so much?

And there’s another thing y’all can be thinking about for the questions later, maybe letting us know what you like about the whole idea of being able to talk with each other and stuff.

What do you think it is, Shirley, that is so attractive about that format?

Shirley

Well, first of all, before I get too far into that, I want to say that was your idea. I’m pretty sure. I think that was your idea.

Lē

I’m just lurking in the shadows doing the technological duties, okay? It’s all you all need to know.

Shirley 

Yeah, well, people should know how you have been so instrumental in terms of thinking about how to present this idea and that idea, and then what platform to use. And we should have a whole different discussion about that.

Lē

Well, we’re both, like you said, very motivated to get this out there. And we’re working really well together. I’m so grateful for that.

Shirley

So what was your question again?

Lē

So what do you think about the live online hybrid format that’s so attractive?

Shirley

Yeah. Well, what I’m finding—which I love—is that… When we get into these conversations, most people have some ideas of their own that they’re attracted to, but they’ve been kind of alone with their ideas. And so when they hear other people sharing their own brand new ideas, there’s kind of an amazing bonding going on within the class. So I feel like I’m a facilitator of conversation because I’m bringing together the research that I’ve done. And this is exciting for me. But then in the hybrid discussions we’re having, I feel like people are happy to find someone else who’s thinking the way they are, and they’re not so alone.

And, you know, when you think about the struggle that these texts have had since antiquity, they have made people be alone because they’ve been branded as heresy. They’ve been kicked out of the church. And so for people to read them, you almost have to find yourself wrestling with your own colleagues and your own people to be able to get involved in these. And that necessarily makes you alone. But when you find other people who are appreciating them and wanting to think in a new way, it is encouraging to be together. So I’m really happy to see that kind of conversation going on. Really makes me happy. And also the fact that I would say most people who take a course take more courses because they appreciate the expanding thought but also the experience of being together.

Lē

As far as other outreach vehicles go, too, I have to mention, just to make sure everybody listening and everybody here knows about all the stuff that you do every week. There are two Bible and Beyond Facebook pages. There is X and Blue Sky and Instagram and a YouTube channel, your own LinkedIn page. A couple of years ago, our Patreon community began to coalesce, and you started writing a weekly column called The Greatest Thing I Learned This Week (which is really good for paid subscribers), and later added opportunities for your Patreon subscribers to join a discussion after the discussion, which is called Bible and Beyond Reflections, where paid subscribers can actually get together and talk about what we have talked about in the discussions themselves.

Then you have online parties for your Patreon people every now and then, complete with terrible Bible jokes and free prizes. And you present live several times a year. You just started publishing weekly on Substack.com. Holy cow, so I can just throw out there the question we will all have to live with is, how does one person do this much stuff? I have trouble keeping up with just the technological end of it, but I think I can express for everybody how wonderful it is that you spend all your time working on these outreach vehicles. And we’re so grateful.

So really, we’re getting to the point where it’s going to be time for everybody. But the one thing I’d like to ask is, looking ahead, what do you think are some of the keys, some of the things that all of us can do to bring more awareness to these early texts? We know all the stuff you’re doing as a scholar. What are things that we as individuals can do to bring the stuff more into the mainstream?

Shirley

I’m so glad for you to ask that, Lē, because at the end of almost all my classes, I tell the students in the class, I love you. I love you so much because you have invested in this incredibly important thing here and you now are able to share it with the world. You are in a position to, to bless somebody else with it. And that’s the thing I care about so much is that everybody who’s in this conversation has engaged in such a way that’s profoundly beautiful and important.

And I feel like you are making my dream come true by speaking to your friends and neighbors and family and anybody who will listen to you too. Certainly we have run across the fact that most people think this is heresy. This is not right. I didn’t learn that in my church upbringing, and so something’s wrong. We run across those, yes. But when you’re feeling that love, as you all do, then you’re in a position to find somebody else who does too. And that’s the thing. That’s the only way I think this thing can continue to grow and to help people get over their fears and doubts so that they also can engage in this profound experience.

Lē

Wow, Shirley, thanks for sharing that with us. I appreciate it. Before I ask everyone to get in on this conversation, I want to take a moment to mention that we have a new course out called “Two Revelations, Two Johns, One Secret.” It’s a look at the book of Revelation in the New Testament and the Secret Revelation of John, a Nag Hammadi text. It’s available on bibleandbeyond.courses for self-study and also as a live online hybrid course. That public one that starts in July. If you’d like to organize your own private live online hybrid course, please get in touch with us. Many people do that throughout the year for their friends or their group or something like that.

And if you’ve missed our recent Substack publication launch, we haven’t been doing our job, but if you have missed it, you’ll find us at bibleandbeyond.substack.com. You can subscribe and get article notes. Let Shirley do the hard work: read the books, read the articles, and give you the notes. And you can decide what is interesting for you and what you want to take up. There are also updates about what textual scholars are up to and short articles on people of interest in early Christianity.

Peggy, you had your hand up. I’m certainly forgetting something I’m supposed to say in my little mid-time speech.

Peggy Williams

You’re not. I’m just getting the jump on when you take a breath and you’re at the end of what you’re going to say.

Lē 

And we’re just right down to it. Now let’s open the floor for questions. So hit it.

Peggy

Okay. First of all, you all talk very quickly. So anybody that heard you mention things, guess what? It’s in the chat. There are links for the Substack. There are links for Bible and Beyond. There are links for Shirley’s book. So they’re in there. And I think there was one I may have missed because it was going quickly, but I’ll go back and be sure I’ve got it.

Shirley, how did you find Lē? And Lē, how’d you find Shirley? And how’d this come about?

Shirley

Oh, that’s a great question. I’m really happy to talk about that. So Deb Saxon—some of you know Deb—she’s been on our program sometimes also. She and I actually ended up finishing our dissertations around the same time. She beat me by about a year or so. But we were really studying almost the same thing. And so she was also working with Tanho. So she knew Hal Taussig at the same time, too. So she’s the first person to whom I said, “Come on! Let’s do this website together!” She says, “Yeah, sure, let’s do that.” So she said, “I know the person who can help us do that.” So she’s the one who introduced me to Lē. OK?

She kind of early on felt like this was more than she really wanted to get into. So she backed out. But she’s the one who introduced me to Lē. And Lē was exactly the right person. So I’m delighted that Deb knew Lē. And they knew each other through Christian Feminism Today. So that’s how they were connected. And so then Lē was the right person for this. 

Lē 

And it was serendipitous. It was something I thought was really cool too. I see, Sara, you have had your hand up. Let us know what’s on your mind, Sara.

Sara Barnacle

My question is, what do we mean by mainstream?

Shirley

 Yeah, well, I would say the mainstream is the part where people feel comfortable in their shoes.

Lē

So mainstream as in “not academia,” maybe.

Shirley

Yeah, I just feel like mainstream includes people who probably feel closer to the majority. The majority has been pretty centrally located with the Nicene Creed and the Nicene history. But I think it’s also bigger than that. I’ve learned that with all the different denominations there are, there are a whole lot of different ways of looking at what Christianity is. So I think if you feel comfortable where you are, you’re in some kind of mainstream. So these texts have not been mainstream. They’ve been excommunicated for some time. And so now bringing them into the mainstream, I think that there’s a place for them in the conversation that belongs there because of the way they were probably mainstream before they were kicked out—is the way I think of it. So I’m thinking that bringing them into the mainstream means helping people to feel comfortable so that they belong in the comfortable place.

Lē

How’s that, Sara? You’ve got a follow-up question, or is that hitting right?

Sara

I think there’ll be some follow-up, but not right at the moment. I do want to add right now that while getting ready for tonight’s meeting, I reread Shirley’s paraphrase of the Secret Revelation of John. And well, when I first read it, I felt I understood it, back a couple of years ago—I guess now maybe even more than a couple. But when I read it today, I thought, “This is the most incredible piece of writing. It explains so much that people want to know.” And so it’s just a valuable, valuable piece of writing, Shirley.

Shirley

Well, thank you, Sara. I revisited it recently myself because of this new course on the Revelation comparisons. And I thought all I was trying to do was take the translations that I was familiar with and make them make sense. And I thought the book was an incredible book. And just trying to make it make sense makes it an incredible piece of writing. So I appreciate your recognition of how valuable it is. But it’s really the book itself that’s so incredible. But thank you.

Sara

Yeah, well, I slipped into the early Christian texts, I think, in an easy way. I was pointed toward a pretty liberal seminary when I wanted to study. And my New Testament course was with Stephen Patterson, who had just translated the Gospel of Thomas. And we got his book. So, I mean, he lets heresy just roll off his shoulder with a wink, you know. That’s a meaningless word for him. And so it was an easy introduction to this world. So when you came along, I was really ready to do it.

Shirley

Isn’t that fun? I would like for more people to have an easy way to get into it. This is what I think we are all about here together—helping others to find an easy way into it.

Sara

Well, I’ve been doing Bible talks and things like that, mostly with people of my own denomination, and they’re so eager to learn more about the Bible, but there does seem to be this feeling like these texts might be a step off—a long walk off a short pier. And you have to kind of go easy sometimes. Or maybe I should go hard; I don’t know. But they don’t have a clue as to the value of these things. And I kind of did. I thought I did, when I was done with that New Testament class. But this has just expanded it so much.

Lē

Fantastic. Maureen, you’re looking resplendent tonight with the turquoise hair. We must call upon you at this time to share your wisdom.

Maureen Blake

Okay, here it comes! I wrote notes because I get so distracted by what everybody else shares because it’s…anyway, two questions for now. When you mentioned, Lē, the four or five places where Shirley’s published, you know, Instagram, Facebook pages and all that. Is it the same message on each one of those?

Lē 

It’s…I’ll let Shirley take that one.

Shirley

Sort of and sort of not. As we’ve been evolving, I would just say that, well, first of all, LinkedIn is more personal than the rest of them. And X and Bluesky have to be short just because they’re short. So they can’t be the same messages. And Facebook is longer. Instagram has a meme. So they’re different that way. But Lē has convinced me that websites have sort of been morphing lately and that people aren’t drawn to blogs the way they used to. So we’re kind of shifting the blog to a couple of other ways of doing this into Substack. And hopefully someday I’ll be able to just write some things like on Facebook, for example, to be present there. But that would be something different from other places. So it hasn’t happened yet, but that’s kind of the direction I think Lē is looking, which means that I end up looking that way too.

Lē

There are kind of different audiences for different things, and it’s changing constantly.

Maureen

I just don’t want to miss any of it.

Lē

So… I really get a different look if you’re a Patreon supporter, which I know you are. That Greatest Thing I learned This Week is very different from anything that’s published anywhere else. The stuff that’s on Substack now, which you can subscribe to for free. We’re passing things through to subscribers for free at this time. And our paid subscribers are just earning our undying gratitude for supporting the effort. That’s totally different than you’ll find anywhere else. And then usually Facebook and X and Insta are more about publicizing these other free things that we’re doing – podcast and YouTube channel things and courses.

Shirley

So the goal of Substack really is to actually keep you all because several of you asked to have more depth, just to go deeper into things. And so Substack gives me the opportunity to do that where I’m really giving you some insight—current deep scholarship through books and really scholarly articles that I couldn’t cover in the blog context. So to get deeper, you go to the Substack place. And I’m trying to keep you up to date with scholars. So it’s more of a scholarly depth on Substack.

Maureen

Okay.

Lē

And Maureen, you said you had two?

Yeah. I wrote down the note, and then it rolled into another one. So don’t answer the parts till I get them all out. The first part was just comments. The different classes I’ve taken and the discussions and what have you—Shirley always urges us to keep in touch with each other. But everyone has a different password. And I got frustrated. Maybe I just need to write out a list of… I’ve not been able to do the discussions as easily because I haven’t always kept track of all the… Different passwords, but as soon as you mention community, that’s why I want to be part of that community. Those people have wanted to see that thing; I want to be able to be in community with them, so I’ve got to be able to figure out an easier way. And then just the other thing about community: I was in a sadly not an interfaith but an ecumenical, pretty conservative group, just where I lived. And it asked me to be a leader, and I was one of the leaders. And when Hal’s book first came out, I quickly got a copy of it. And there was a big, I mean, color write-up about him interviewing him. And I pulled that out of the paper and was going to take it to my Bible study; I had it tucked in my arm. And the leaders were just kind of gathered around. And one of the leaders dashed in with the same article. They said, “Look we’ve got to be careful! They’re having a different Bible!” I did not bring up my concept then! I didn’t stay there a whole lot longer because I was in the children’s leadership for a while. And the four-year-old said, “Do you mean we have two different gods, two different Jesuses?” And I thought… and I dropped out soon after that. They were not my community.

Lē

But I’m going to write down, Maureen, what you said about the whole one community thing. I think I understand you. And that seems like a technological challenge that I can try to undertake.

Maureen

So I was gonna ask you about it.

Lē

Yeah, yeah, definitely heard on that, and on my notes here.

So I think we’re gonna move on to Gretchen. Gretchen, what do you have to say?

Gretchen Buehner

Hi, I apologize. My camera’s acting up. I have read Shirley’s book. It is fantastic. I can’t speak highly enough about it. But the comment I wanted to raise, and Shirley knows I’m a historian, and that’s what I did my graduate work in, is the culture of Rome and the pater familias and the whole basing things on the emperor. I think if a class could be put together with somebody like Shirley or someone else to go at it from the theological side and someone who’s a historian to talk about the culture that was in control in Rome in the fourth century, it would be great. I mean, Thecla and Paul, you know, that is a classic story that shows how horrible that culture was to women. And you can absolutely see, between the concept of the construction of the empire and this very anti-female culture that existed, why a lot of the books that were not included in the official Bible didn’t make it in the canon. I think that would be a terrific class to educate people a little bit about the context in which all these decisions are made.

Shirley

Boy, that’s really helpful, Gretchen. It’s such a huge subject, but I think you’re right that you just cannot understand these texts without knowing the context. You know, one of our mottos is, “learn context, gain insight”, because over and over again, we learned how true that is—that you just cannot comprehend what these texts are talking about without understanding that kind of context. So thank you for that thought, Gretchen; that’s really helpful.

Gretchen

Yeah, I think that that’s really great. I was willing to consult and find any way I could help in putting something together.

Shirley

Oh, Gretchen, thank you so much. That’s really, really helpful.

Lē

You know, Shirley, you’ve been touching lately on cultural things in almost all the classes, but it’s putting this one specific instance in it. I think it’s a great idea. You can bet Gretchen we’ll be chewing over that next time we’re on the phone. Pat, what do you think?

Pat Nester

Well, it’s interesting. Several years ago when I retired, I decided I wanted to find out the latest thinking about reality. So I started reading all these quantum physics popular books and neuroscience and cosmology books about the views of modern science with respect to reality. But then when Bible and Beyond came along, I started reading some of these ancient texts, thanks to you and Shirley, and found that the quality and depth of thinking of these early thinkers are equivalent at least, and in many cases, more comprehensive than modern thinkers. They didn’t have the technology that we have. They certainly had the depth of thought, and they took it into a dimension that modern thinkers usually overlook, which is the nature of love and compassion and ethics that are usually disregarded by modern scientific thinkers. So anyway, I’m very grateful to be plugged into these early texts from that perspective. I think that the quality and depth of thought go way beyond many modern ideas. So there.

Shirley

I do too, Pat.

Lē

Thanks, Pat. All right. Sara has something else to share with us. What have you got, Sara?

Sara

Well, Shirley already has a lot of the material all in a string for that class because of the centuries of Christianity. If people aren’t aware of that, they really need to become aware of that. I mean, it is so educational and so informative, and it gives you a lot of sympathy for Christianity and its development and what we were always up against and succeeding or not. So you could really start with that. And the other thing I wanted to be sure that we hear about tonight is the project you’ve mentioned a time or two, about a collaboration. With somebody, you’re working on a book.

Shirley

Yeah! Mark Mattison. We are working on a… How should I say?… an English translation that’s accessible of Nag Hammadi and related texts, mostly Nag Hammadi. But it’s a slow go because we’re noodling over every single word, and we’re making a big chart of saying, well, every time we run across this word, we think we’re going to use this word for a translation. So hopefully as we get farther along, we’ll be able to plug in those words and see if it makes sense. But it’s very, very slow. But I am enjoying the process because I feel like it’s giving me a sense of what the Coptic language is bringing to this conversation. So, yeah, I don’t know. It’s going to be a long time. That’s all I can say. We’re still in The Secret Revelation of John, which is the second book in the whole collection. And I don’t know, it’s just slow. And also, The Secret Revelation of John is the only one that has four copies, you know, four versions of it. So we’re doing all four, which slows us down.

Sara

I just want to add that that chain of Christian history seems to me to fit in very well with the talk about mainstream. Because I think people from a lot of different denominations could start with that material and not feel like they’re out on a limb by themselves. It might help with a sense of…I don’t know…unity, or something that this is a history we all have in common, even if we seem very different today.

Shirley

Well, thank you, Sara. One of the things I learned from doing that was how malleable the history of Christianity really has been. It just keeps moving. As soon as you feel like you got the answer, somebody else asks more questions and it keeps on changing. So nothing ever held still. It just kept moving and still does keep moving. So that’s given me confidence.

It’s a way to understand why we belong together too, because everybody’s thoughts contribute to the whole movement of things. And so I appreciate your saying that it’s probably a good link with mainstream. Isn’t that idea of history? It’s got lots of different tributaries, but it’s all part of the same river.

Lē

Thanks, Sara. And I just want to say we’re getting closer to the end here. So probably we have Peggy and Honor, and then that’ll probably be all the questions we have time for. So just to put that out there. I did put in the chat the Christianity Through the Centuries. It’s the last 12 blog posts at earlychristiantext.com/blog. And if you go to the bottom of one of those posts, there’s a Christianity Through the Centuries link that’ll take you to the actual index page for that series. It was a longer URL, so you can get there through the one I put up there. And so we’re onto you, Peggy, share with us.

Peggy

Well, good news is that I can talk fast. Thank you for putting that link there. I want to kind of sum up the chat a little bit. Be sure and read it before you log off because there are lots of compliments for you and thank-yous and things like that. And they vary. There is one question that I couldn’t answer. What’s the Bluesky link? And I didn’t know what that is. So I either missed it while I was transcribing. I found it in the meantime. I was searching there.

Good. Thank you, Ruth (White). You want to post it and chat so others can see it, Ruth?

Ruth White

I’ll try.

Lē 

Yeah, Ruth, please, if you can. Or I’ll try.

Peggy 

Okay. While they’re doing that, I think Shirley knows that I’m more than a fan. I’m an invested fan. I love all this, and I get the question about Shirley: How the heck do you do all this? But how about for those of us on the other side? How do we read it all? You don’t have to tell me that part. But if you were going to suggest to someone that thinks that maybe they don’t have time to read absolutely everything, what would be the first thing to do? Is it the one we’ve just put the link to about Christianity? Or what do you think?

Shirley

Well, I appreciate that question, Peggy, because I know that I don’t want people to feel like I’m throwing the fire hose down their throats. But what I often find is that I ask people if they listen to podcasts. When they do, I suggest they go to the podcast because you can sort of browse through there and pick a topic that you like. And podcasts are easy to do if you do podcasts.

If they don’t do podcasts, then I would suggest that they… Go browse around in these Discussions to see if there’s one that they’d like to look at and just be a part of the conversation. Those are easy to do.

And if they prefer reading, then they can go to the blog. And just, again, we’ve got years and years of topics. And the best thing about the blog is that you can look in the search results in the query bar and type in any word that you’re interested in. And it’ll bring up five or six or more blog posts or videos or something else that relates to their question or the topic. So that’s the easiest way to get into it.

And then if they’re scholars, you guide them to Substack. So it’s kind of a different thing. That’ll be helpful. And then if they love us the way you do, they can go to Patreon and become supporters who will get my weekly The Greatest Thing I Learned This Week, which is kind of more of a personal reflection on things.

Peggy

And I did put a link to Patreon. Please become a member, everyone.

Maureen

Isn’t there an intro class?

Lē

And yes, and that’s an important thing. And I think it just slipped our minds there that on the bibleandbeyond.courses website, that Nag Hammadi class, which is an intro to basically extracanonical texts, is available for free, for self-study, for free. We do offer live online hybrid courses in it every now and then. But anybody can sign up for that at any time for free and get kind of a background of what early Christian texts are. And that’s thanks to the Luce Public Scholarship Grant. So that would be another good place to direct somebody.

Honor, I’ll warn you that we’re really running out of time. So hit me with something quick, please.

Honor Haase

Two quick things. Number one, I often mentioned how much I love the illustrations that you, Lē, put into the lectures.

Lē

Ah, thank you.

Honor

I’m an artist, I always feel a little presumptuous saying that, but I do like to paint and draw. And honestly, Lē, I would watch those lectures just for the pictures. That’s terrific. Those beautiful watercolors are wonderful. Thank you, thank you, thank you. So I get to say it to your face. Thank you.

My other point is, earlier on, when somebody asked Shirley how this got started, and she said she approached this one, and she approached that one, and these people did, and these people didn’t, and some were on again, off again. And I thought, I don’t know, the picture I got was like the Apostle Paul. He’s out there; he’ll talk to anybody, and if they don’t like it, too bad. He goes on to the next. He didn’t let anything stop him. And I thought, Shirley is just like Paul. And then I looked at her picture, and her name is Paul-son. That’s awesome.

Lē

Thanks, Honor. That’s really appreciated. Sujan, we’re running out of time, but what can we do for you?

Sujan Burgleson

I just want to thank you. And Shirley, you know, I love you. I love all of your courses. I’m inspired by them. But, you know, since you’re here, Lē, I want to say I really appreciate how efficient, fast and compassionate you are. And if anything is wrong with the website, you’re right there. And you’ve been so helpful. So I just want to give you all of my appreciation also. Thank you so much. And I appreciate you’ve notified me of things that were messed up that I didn’t even know.

Lē

So we’re a team. All of us are a team, you know. So thank you. All right. Well, I’m afraid that we’ve run out of time, and it’s too bad because it’s like the Bible and Beyond Patreon parties where we feel like we could talk all night, or the Reflections or something. So we’re going to have to wrap it up.

I’ll remind you that, Karen, you’re leading the group after this is over?

Karen Hagen

Yes, I am. And tonight I thought maybe we’d reflect on this conversation as a Holy Scripture reading.

Lē

Oh, that’s lovely. Great. So with the closing here, thanks everyone for your participation in tonight’s discussion. And thank you all for all the ways so many of you have supported the Bible and Beyond during its first eight years. We’re just consumed with gratitude, believe me. This was the June 2026 Bible and Beyond Discussion titled The Bible and Beyond Moving into the Mainstream. The Bible and Beyond monthly Discussions are led by a knowledgeable scholar who provides a thoughtful overview of issues related to the early Christians and the writings in circulation during that time. During the second half hour of these online events, participants have a chance to ask their own questions. The Discussions are usually held on the fourth Monday of the month from 8 through 9 p.m. Eastern.

Next month, Lillian Larson is coming back to talk about how early Christians learn things. And how that impacted the way Christianity took shape. By the way, this is a topic suggested by one of you, so don’t ever hesitate to let us know what you’d like us to tackle next. You can get in touch with us and learn more on the website we created, once again, just for you, at earlychristiantext.com or by emailing us at connect@earlychristiantexts.com.

Thanks so much for being with us to celebrate the first eight years of the Bible and Beyond. Because of your continued support, we have many more years to look forward to. And Shirley, thanks for sitting in the other chair.

Shirley

It’s a lot of fun, Lē. Thank you so much for sitting in that chair. All right. And thanks everybody for being with us.