The Bible and Beyond Podcast Episode
Making the Mysterious ‘Dialogue of the Savior’ Not So Mysterious
An Interview with Anna Cwikla
Anna Cwikla, photo by Brigidda Bell
I don’t know if it’s because Anna Cwikla is so down-to-earth herself, or the strange-sounding Dialogue of the Savior is much more down-to-earth than people realize, but in this podcast conversation, Anna talks about the characters in the story as if they are people we’d enjoy talking to today. She is an avid participant on her softball team and curling team, but she’s also committed to working on her dissertation for her Ph.D. in the Department for the Study of Religion (at the University of Toronto).
I asked Anna about the one woman (named ‘Mary’) in the ‘dialogue’ with two other named disciples and the Savior (likely Jesus), and Anna points out that’s a little better than the ratio on her softball team, which is 3 to 1. In other words, the fact that a woman is speaking in this extracanonical text shouldn’t sound so unusual.
In like manner, Anna demystifies some of the bizarre-sounding passages, such as “pray where there is no woman,” or “the works of the female will perish.” The Dialogue of the Savior doesn’t have to be interpreted esoterically, because it’s actually simpler to find a practical and reasonable interpretation.
This discussion was so interesting! Anna did indeed offer simple interpretations of puzzling texts in The Dialog of the Savior. Such as, “Pray in the place where there is no woman” could mean, Pray in a place where you are not distracted by lust or sexual encounters. Jesus said as much in Biblical texts – Go into your closet, some quiet place, and shut the door against distractions.
Thank you, Shirley, for finding various ways to share insights about the non-canonical writings. And for going to considerable effort to make these happen so that those of us who are interested, but may never go in-depth, can gain some perspective on these writings from those who have.